Questions sur la Loi Impériale

Concernant les nobles vassaliques, je pense que la loi impériale se tait sur la question et laisse le réglement de la question au sein de la future loi héraldique provinciale... C'est l'impression que ça donne

Maintenant ce n'est pas du tout clair sur cette question.

Citation :

Dissociation des types de noblesses, retirant la notion de noblesse directe à la noblesse Royale.

ils n'ont jamais été noble direct de l'Empereur... C'est une invention de "je-ne-sais-pas-qui"...

Au niveau des échelons :
Cela veut dire qu'en dessous de comte, nous pouvons créer le rang suivant : comte, vicomte, baron, seigneur, chevalier... On pourrait donc avoir 5 niveaux maximum pour les provinces...

Ou comte, vicomte, baron, chevalier : 4 niveaux

et ainsi de suite... C'est l'impression que ça me donne

Idem pour les nobles du Royaume à part qu'eux auront tous les niveaux entre duc et chevalier...

On ne peut pas créer de nouveau titre, juste créer des niveaux...

Citation :

ils n'ont jamais été noble direct de l'Empereur... C'est une invention de "je-ne-sais-pas-qui"... 

Ils sont considérés comme tel de par le texte en vigueur. Je ne dis pas que c'est logique, mais c'est un fait, et ça a d'ailleurs été répété dans le texte précisant la loi. D'ailleurs, les nobles Royaux ont dû porter allégeances à l'Impératrice sur ce mandat-ci.

Citation :

On ne peut pas créer de nouveau titre, juste créer des niveaux...

Quand tu créés un niveau, tu dois forcément y associer un titre. 
Mais en somme cela revient à ce que je dis sur les échelons: Cela permet juste de réinsérer le titre distinct de "Seigneur" si une Province le désir.

Je pense que c'est l'avis général !

Mais c'est au Franc Comte de légaliser cela il me semble que c'est ce qui a été dit plus d'une fois si je ne m'abuse.

La loi va changer donc ca sera à nous

Voici la dernière mouture en travaux.

Y'a des modifications à vous de voir ce qui ne vous plait ou pas pour faire remonter ensuite. Et navrée, je n'ai pas la version traduite.

Findecano a écrit:

Citation :

Imperial Law of NobilityI. Preamble

1. The Imperial Law of Nobility applies everywhere in the Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ. It replaces all former imperial laws about heraldry and nobility. 2. The Concordate with Rome should always be respected.3. The Imperial Law of Nobility is divided into two more sections: 'II. Imperial Domain' and 'III. Kingdoms and Provinces'. Both sections state the basic laws for the respective territories.4. The Imperial Law of Nobility is changeable as is determined in the Magna Carta.

II. Imperial DomainA. Imperial Nobility and Domain

1. All imperial nobles are immediate vassals of the Holy Roman Emperor, who is their liege lord. The Imperial Nobility can have their own vassals, as is determined later in this section, in this case they are seen as their liege lord.2. All titles and fiefs of Imperial Nobility are granted by the Holy Roman Emperor at his own discretion.3. Ranks of Imperial Nobility:


• Dukes;
  
• Margraves / Marquises;
  
• Landgraves and Princely Counts;
  
• Princes;
  
• Palsgraves;
  
• Counts;
  
• Burgraves / Viscounts;
  
• Barons / Lords;
  
• (Imperial) Knights.
  

4. The ranks of margrave and marquis are the same, burgrave and viscount are the same and baron and lord are the same, but are granted to the correct fief in the corresponding language/traditional zone, determined by the Imperial College of Heraldry.5. All granted titles (except (Imperial) Knight) carry the respective fiefs with them. The Imperial College of Heraldry advises the Holy Roman Emperor in allocating correct fiefs based on tradition and history.6. Knights that have been knighted by the Holy Roman Emperor will be known as Imperial Knights.7. The Holy Roman Emperor and Imperial King of Arms determine which territories and fiefs are part of the Imperial Domain and which are part of the provinces.

B. Vassals of the Imperial Nobility

1. The Imperial Nobility is allowed to grant the following fiefs and knighthoods freely:


• Dukes are allowed to grant up to 2 counties, 2 burgraviates (or viscounties), 2 lordships (or baronies) and 5 knighthoods.
  
• Margraves or Marquises are allowed to grant up to 1 county, 2 burgraviates (or viscounties), 2 lordships (or baronies) and 4 knighthoods.
  
• Princely Counts or Landgraves are allowed to grant up to 2 burgraviates (or viscounties), 2 lordships (or baronies) and 4 knighthoods.
  
• Princes are allowed to grant up to 1 burgraviate (or viscounty), 1 lordship (or barony) and 4 knighthoods.
  
• Palsgraves are allowed to grant up to 1 lordship (or barony) and 4 knighthoods.
  
• Counts are allowed to grant up to 2 lordships (or baronies) and 3 knighthoods.
  
• Burgraves or viscounts are allowed to grant up to 3 knighthoods.
  
• Lords or barons are not allowed to grant any fiefs or knighthoods.
  

2. Vassals of the Imperial Nobility cannot grant any fiefs or knighthoods themselves.3. The Holy Roman Emperor may grant the right to assign more fiefs and knighthoods to specific imperial nobles. This has to be sealed in the patent or in a contract.

C. Ennoblement

1. Any ennoblement or knightly accolade (for both Imperial Nobles and their vassals) has to take place within a special ceremony to found the new relationship between the liege lord and his vassal. During the ceremony the vassal brings the oath of allegiance and swears to provide the liege lord with Auxillium and Consillium. In return the vassals are granted their title and corresponding fief and the liege lord swears to protect his vassal from any harm and assures justice and sustenance. The Imperial King of Arms or any person that is commissioned by him should be present to bear witness of the act.2. With the ennoblement a vassal receives at least the coat of arms of his new fief with the corresponding rank crown, hat or coronet and a patent of nobility signed or validated by the Imperial King of Arms.

D. Rights and Duties

1. Vassals (except knights) receive a part of the territory held by the liege lord to govern on behalf of their lord. They receive the noble status corresponding to the title that they are granted and are allowed to wear the blazon in their coat of arms.2. Every vassal is obligated to provide his liege lord with Auxilium whenever he is requested to do so. He should aid his liege lord together with all his own vassals -if present- in case of war and feuds. Vassals with a position in the church are not obligated to take up arms. Vassals that are for whatever reason unable to aid their liege lord in person have to provide for replacements or should provide financial compensation.3. Every vassal is obligated to provide his liege lord with Consilium. He should give counsel in the council rooms of his liege lord (for example the Imperial Diet).4. The liege lord is allowed to grant further rights or demand further duties in a contract between him and the vassal. A contract is only valid when it is signed by both parties. A contract may only be changed on mutual agreement. A signed contract is binding and has priority above this law.

E. Stewardship

1. Any imperial fief can have a steward. The steward represents the imperial noble in case of absence towards his vassals and subjects as well as in front of the Holy Roman Emperor. The steward is not allowed to grant any titles or fiefs.2. Imperial nobles may grant the office of a steward to anyone they wish, but the Holy Roman Emperor can always order the vassal to choose a different steward. The Holy Roman Emperor may assign a steward to any imperial fief when it is vacant or when the noble is absent.

F. Worldly church fiefs

1. The worldly church fiefs (prince-archbishoprics, prince-bishoprics, princely abbeys) may be granted to the corresponding clergyman, who will rule the fief on behalf of the Holy Roman Emperor as Prince-(Arch)bishop/Prince-Abbot.2. Prince-Archbishops are allowed to grant up to 4 lordships (or baronies) and 6 knighthoods.Prince-Bishops are allowed to grant up to 3 lordships (or baronies) and 4 knighthoods.Prince-Abbots are allowed to grant up to 2 lordships (or baronies) and 3 knighthoods.3. Stewardship over a worldly church fief may be granted to an imperial noble or province.4. Stewards of worldly church fiefs have the same worldly rights as the Archbishop or Bishop, as long as that post is vacant.5. In exceptional cases a worldly church fief may be converted to and granted as a normal imperial fief (for example duchy, principality, county).

G. Sanctions and Imperial Nobility Court

1. If a vassal does not fulfil his duties or breaks the existing contract (if there is one), the liege lord is allowed to impose sanctions.2. If a liege lord harms the rights of his vassal or breaks the existing contract (if there is one), the vassal is allowed to refuse the compliance of single or all duties. 3. If the conflict cannot be solved on mutual agreement, both sides have the right to bring the case in front of the Imperial Nobility Court.4. If the liege lord wishes to withdraw any titles or fiefs from a vassal, he should inform the Imperial King of Arms, who will carry out the wish. If the vassal thinks he is treated unfairly, he may bring the case in front of the Imperial Nobility Court.5. The Imperial Nobility Court speaks justice in cases that are presented to it. Everyone has the right to bring cases in front of the Imperial Nobility Court.6. The Imperial Nobility Court is lead by the Imperial King of Arms who chooses two imperial nobles that are not involved in the case and two persons from the Imperial College of Heraldry....

H. Imperial College of Heraldry

1. All matters that involve the Imperial Domain are governed by the Imperial College of Heraldry.2. The Imperial College of Heraldry consists of the Imperial King of Arms, his deputy, the Imperial Heralds and the representatives of all other colleges of heraldry of the Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ.3. The Imperial College of Heraldry is lead by the Imperial King of Arms, who is chosen by the Holy Roman Emperor in accordance with the Magna Carta. He may appoint a deputy to replace him during absences.4. The Imperial Heralds support the Imperial King of Arms in his job and can carry out the daily work of the Imperial Heraldry. They are appointed by the Imperial King of Arms.

I. Heraldic rules

1. The Imperial College of Heraldry is allowed to create extra heraldic rules for the Imperial Domain (for example rules for crowns, coat of arms, seals, bullae, jousts, genealogy, etcetera) in an addendum to this law. These rules have to be approved by the Holy Roman Emperor in order to be valid and can be changed at any time by the Imperial College of Heraldry.

III. Kingdoms and ProvincesA. Laws

1. Kingdoms and provinces within the Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ are allowed to make own laws and decisions concerning nobility, as long as they don’t interfere with the Imperial Law of Nobility. The Emperor or the Imperial King of Arms is able to declare (parts of) such laws and decisions invalid.2. The kingdoms and provinces are free to create their own colleges of heraldry according to their own laws. The statutes of these local heraldries are only valid when they are validated by the Imperial King of Arms. The leaders of said colleges or their representatives are gathered in the Imperial College of Heraldry to discuss any matters that might involve them.3. The kingdoms and provinces are allowed to create their own heraldic rules, but are advised to follow the heraldic rules that are determined by the Imperial College of Heraldry (see II.I.).4. The Imperial King of Arms has the right to inspect all other colleges of heraldry in the Sacrum Romanorum Imperium Nationis Germanicӕ.5. All other colleges of heraldry should actively supply the Imperial College of Heraldry with an up-to-date list of their nobles.

B. Kingdoms

1. The kingdoms are only allowed to use the territories and fiefs that have been ceded from the Imperial Domain and that have been given to them by the Holy Roman Emperor for the use as their Royal Domain.2.1. The Kingdom of Lotharingia is free to grant fiefs up to duchies in their Royal Domain. 2.2. The German Kingdom can grant fiefs up to duchies from the fiefs that are assigned to the kingdom by the Holy Roman Emperor.3. The kingdoms are allowed to create their own order of ranks up to duke, but are advised to follow the ranks and order used for the Imperial Nobility (see II.A.3.).

C. Provinces

1. The provinces are allowed to use the territories that are historically part of the province. Any other fiefs that were part of this province are granted in personal union with the title of the elected regent by the Holy Roman Emperor. The Imperial King of Arms determines which territories are historically part of the province, with the aid of the Imperial College of Heraldry.2. The provinces are allowed to grant fiefs up to counties within the territory assigned to them.3. The provinces are allowed to create their own order of ranks up to count, but are advised to follow the ranks and order used for the Imperial Nobility (see II.A.3.).

Blue = work in progress...

Citation :

G. Sanctions and Imperial Nobility Court

Il faut généraliser la cour de Justice que ce soit en Empire ou dans les Provinces/Royaumes

Citation :

I. Heraldic rules

Qu'entend-on par le "etcaetera" ? Dès que cela impacte la noblesse, je pense que la Diète des Nobles doit être consultée

Citation :

III. Kingdoms and Provinces
A. Laws

Encore une fois, que se passé-t-il si il existe une hérauderie royale et des hérauderies provinciales autonomes pour le meme royaume?

Citation :

2.1. The Kingdom of Lotharingia is free to grant fiefs up to duchies in their Royal Domain.

Le titre de duc est un titre bien trop élevé... Personne n'a compris les provinces francophones après les abus du Roi Leif?

Aucune limite de fief non plus...

Citation :

C. Provinces

Concernant les fiefs vassaliques, le point A règle le problème ?

Citation :

2.1. The Kingdom of Lotharingia is free to grant fiefs up to duchies in their Royal Domain.


Le titre de duc est un titre bien trop élevé... Personne n'a compris les provinces francophones après les abus du Roi Leif?

Aucune limite de fief non plus...

Je suis d'accord..Sinon il y aura 10 nouveaux ducs.


Et ce titre doit être rare.

Pas parce que je l'ai, hein. Logiquement...c'est un titre que seul l'Empereur doit donner. A ce sujet, Imladris, si tu t'exprimes en Diète sur le titre de duc, dis leur que je soutiens que je ne veux pas que les royaumes puissent donner ce titre, maximum prince et encore..

Bon et bien, j'ai été mise dehors depuis ton élection. A toi de te débrouiller maintenant pour faire le lien entre l'empire et ici. sourit en se disant qu'elle était bien à la retraite.

Concernant les questions de Cecilia et les remarques... En fait ça correspond à ce que j'y ai dit aussi

Oui Findecano m'a dit qu'il n'y aurait qu'un héraut comtois au sein du Collège Héraldique Impérial... Bon je ferai le job.

Pour information la Savoie a proposé son propre texte mais je ne pense pas que ça passera...